Transcript of podcast interview by Mr K Shanmugam, Coordinating Minister for National Security and Minister for Home Affairs, on The Rishi Report

Rishi: I was in the film and journalism… Ithaca kids. The only time we meet was when we partied together in College Town. All legal party-ings.

Minister: Most of them wouldn't know where Singapore is.

Rishi: Do you think comedians might ever be a threat to national security? Between us.

Minister: I would say comedians help national security because you bring the blood pressure of society down.

Rishi: I mean, I've always been interested in the world of politics.

Minister: Well, a lot of people might think that they serve the same purpose.

Rishi: Which is?

Minister: Which is to provide entertainment to the public.

Rishi: Okay. Good. You heard it first on The Rishi Report live, okay?

[Intro: This episode is brought to you in collaboration with the Ministry of Home Affairs. Enjoy.]

Rishi: What's going on everyone? Thanks for joining us on another very special episode of The Rishi Report Podcast. Now, if you've been following the show, we've had a very distinguished series of guests come on. We've had artists, we've had scientists, we've had scholars, we've had entertainers, politicians as well, but we've never had the Minister for Home Affairs, the Coordinating Minister for National Security. I know, I try very hard. And eventually, we have him in the studios with us. Please welcome Minister K. Shanmugam.

Minister: Thank you, Rishi.

Rishi: Good afternoon, sir. Thanks for joining me.

Minister: I noticed a dip in your voice when you mentioned “politicians”.

Rishi: Oops. You picked up on that, huh? Very good. No, no, I mean, I've always been interested in the world of politics, but you know, I think it's always at odds with my career as a comedian. They seem to serve different purposes.

Minister: Well, a lot of people might think that they serve the same purpose.

Rishi: Which is?

Minister: Which is to provide entertainment to the public.

Rishi: Okay. Good. You heard it first on The Rishi Report live, okay? Do I refer to you as Minister Shanmugam? Is that okay?

Minister: That's fine. I've been referred worse things.

Rishi: Yeah, I know. I cannot say that on camera. But actually, you know what, that might be an interesting segment, if at some point you are reading all the mean tweets that people have said.

Minister: No, I’ve got no time.

Rishi: I know. You see, that's the thing. I know you are very busy, and, because of that, it means a lot that you've made time to come and speak to us here. I paraphrase a little bit, but I watched a recent interview of yours saying that before you go to bed every night, one of the things you think about is how to make Singapore survive every day, how to ensure its existence and its survival every day. Is this a fact? Is this something you truly have that’s a… a responsibility you feel for yourself?

Minister: Yes, at two levels. I mean, if you look at my job, it's to make sure that internally, we are secure. And through the day, you know, the different things that come on my table, I look at it in a framework of laws, potential incidents, actual incidents, how to make sure that we reduce the security risks for people, right? So, it's not the total aspect of keeping Singapore safe. Ministry of Defence, other Ministries, economic security, there are multiple facets. So, mine is one facet of it, my Ministry.

At a broader level, as a Minister in the Cabinet, you know for us, you look at our size in Singapore, you look at our vulnerabilities. In a broader sense, everything we do is to make sure that we succeed, and be economically secure, politically secure as a sovereign nation, and our people are looked after. So, that's a broader context.

Rishi: It’s a stressful thing? Or is this something you kind of just take on and you're like, "You know what? This is what I signed up for."?

Minister: Specific incidents may be stressful. But it's all how you manage your stress, because stress actually prevents you from clarity of thinking.

So, you should remove the stress. Just be very objective, factual, look at the facts, make your decisions, and you really need to be cool. And stress is not a very good factor if you want to make clear, cool-headed decisions. So I, you know, remove it.

Also, your approach, your mental clarity, and the way of thinking. If you get fixed with fear, concern, worry, stress, what might happen – how do you focus on what you have to do? So, you just need to have the mental strength to remove all of that, and just focus on what you have to do.

Rishi: Well, two things I would like to ask. You mentioned not letting fear rule you. Do you feel like people fear you sometimes in society?

Minister: I have heard people say that they are a little bit awed, a little bit in fear, a little bit scared or worried. I mean, I've had people, you know we had three, four of us sitting together and talking, and this was fairly recent. Three of them didn't touch the food at all. And so, later on, one of my assistants asked them, and they said they were too scared to eat.

Rishi: Scared?

Minister: And sometimes this happens, but, you know, I wonder why.

Rishi: Yeah, maybe it comes with... I mean, because historically, in your tenure, you've had to deliver very serious, very heavy, not always good news for the country.

Minister: Tough news, I would say.

Rishi: Tough news.

Minister: Tough news. Framework, law, order, what we have to do, but it's all towards, you know, if they look through it, it's all for protection of them as individuals.

I think it may also be that, you know, these are young kids, they are students. They come, they sit down. There is a – in their minds – a gap between them and someone who is a Minister or has been a Minister for some time. So it’s also that, I think…

Rishi: Like a generation…

Minister: Yeah, generational gap. Try and put them at ease. I've heard it sometimes, not too often.

Rishi: Fair. What's the deadlifting record right now? The public wants to know, sir. I know you've been active in it, you know. I know you've been doing a lot of work.

Minister: The record was, some time ago, 125 kilograms. I have been trying to get back to that, but you know, work has been not very supportive of continuous training.

Rishi: I mean, yeah, there's a lot of things going on that require your attention, I'm guessing. Yeah. So, can you all stop this nonsense so that Min can go back to training? You all are giving him… taking him away from his training.

Minister: Actually, it’s not them, it's the rest of the world.

Rishi: Ah, okay. There's a lot of challenges.

Minister: Singapore is fine. It's the rest of the world that creates problems, and that then impacts on Singapore.

Rishi: Are we okay right now given the current situation? I mean, there's been discussions about you know, the increase in energy prices at the petrol pump, due to the war, due to the closing of the Strait. Is that something that's keeping us up?

Minister: Rishi, we are 728 square kilometres. You drive from Jurong to Changi, how long does it take you legally? You drive from Woodlands to Shenton Way, how long does it take you on the expressway? That's your country.

You import everything – food, oil, gas, everything, right? We are one of the most successful economies per capita in the world. And even in actual size, we are number three in actual economy in ASEAN. Our economy is bigger than Malaysia's, it's bigger than that of Vietnam, Philippines. They have a 100 million population. They have 300,000 square kilometres, some of them. Malaysia has more than 300,000 square kilometres.

So, we have built our economy on brain power, human resources, education, primary healthcare, training our people, having rational economic policies, but the world frequently interrupts, because we live, we make our money by trade. So, what happens when the Straits of Hormuz cuts off 20% of the world's gas supplies? Companies have started declaring force majeure.

So, a substantial part of our supply is disrupted. You then need the flexibility to go and get the gas, the oil from other places, right? We are one of the largest refiners of oil in the world. So, you need to do those things, but of course the pricing is then different. And you don't know how long this is going to last. Now, that means fertiliser prices are affected because of oil and other byproducts of the shortage or cutback in the flow of oil. Food prices – what is the impact?

So, these are just two very obvious and basic, but there is a whole series of other impacts on supply chains. So yes, it's time... it's been some time. We have been looking at it. Looking at it doesn't mean looking at it only. We have been making decisions, and we're moving. You know, it’s a time of intense activity. But as a country, the key that has seen us through everything is – clarity of policymaking, decision-making, long range as well as mid-range thinking, and a united people. As long as we have that, we will see through.

Rishi: United people – that's an important segue into some of the things that, you know, I'm hoping to request your input on today. Now, there have been world events, even before this conflict came up. Last year, 2025, there was quite a serious incident taking place in Sydney at the Bondi Beach.

You had some important views on it, which I'm just trying to understand, how this incident took place and what the role of online extremism was in it.

Minister: I'm not an expert on the Australian situation per se, but broadly what I've observed, I'll make a distinction between the Western approach, as in Western Europe, US, Australia, New Zealand, and our approach, because I've had to look at that. I would make a few points.

One – having a Police force like the Internal Security Department and having a framework of laws that allows us to intervene very, very early. The laws, as I understand it, in Australia, in Western Europe, don't allow you to intervene in the way that we can and we do. For them, it won't be acceptable.

Rishi: May I ask why? Is it a privacy issue?

Minister: It's not so much a privacy issue, it's philosophically, the concept of – in Singapore, the Internal Security Department can determine you to be a threat to national security, come to the Minister, and I can sign the order for detention.

Rishi: I see. So, they, they bring it to you, this case…

Minister: They bring it, yes.

Rishi: And you review it and go, "Okay, this is fair for us to make an early intervention."

Minister: Yes, and then Cabinet is notified. My decision can be subject to review by a panel headed by a judge and ultimately by the President.

But you know, this process of detaining without a trial on an order of a Minister, I think, many, many Western countries would find it very difficult to accept. So, our people have accepted it. We have explained it. They've seen the results. They've seen how it keeps Singapore safe.

Of course, if you abuse that power, then you know, this is a highly literate, educated society, and they will know that you're abusing the power.

So, that's one. You have Internal Security Department and the framework of laws to support it. So, zero tolerance. The moment you start thinking about fighting in these foreign places, doing things you know, putting on a uniform to fight or joining a fighting force, and you take a few steps towards it, or you take some steps towards doing an attack in Singapore, the Internal Security Department has the powers to move in. I don't think that's available elsewhere.

Second, I take a very tough view, we take a very tough view on hate speech. If you look at many societies, there is a cleavage, a division between the in-group, out-group. In-group is usually the majority. The out-group could be minority or series of minorities.

And the minority can be defined by race, skin colour, or language or religion. And when they do that (out-group, in-group), the out-group is dehumanised regularly. You know, "These guys are A, B, C," like what Hitler did to the Jews. And once the majority start thinking of you along those lines, you are dehumanised. They can treat you like the way they treat people who are subhuman.

Then violence becomes acceptable. We in Singapore say, "You want to praise your own race, your own religion, fine, no problem. You want to run down anybody else, no." As comedians, you know, you can run down people, but not along racial or religious lines.

Rishi: I was actually just going to raise that point about… You know why, because for the comic, from a comedian's perspective, if you are the out-group, so to speak, the minority…

Minister: Yeah. But in Singapore, even the minority, whether you're a minority, say you're Indian or Malay, you attack the Chinese along racial lines, that's against the law. The law equally prohibits anyone from attacking somebody else along racial or religious lines.

So, we come down very hard on hate speech. For example, you remember the Polytechnic lecturer who saw an Indian with an East Asian-looking girl.

Rishi: Yes, I remember the case.

Minister: He got very angry, and he exchanged words with him, with the couple, with the man, the Indian man. That went viral. Now, this is something that probably happens on every street walk by the side of a bar in Western societies. You see an Indian or a coloured person walking with a white girl, you will get comments. In Singapore, that man lost his job. He went to jail. Serious consequences. Now, it has happened to the minorities too, when they do these things. So, hate speech is prohibited.

Since the Gaza conflict, what has happened in many countries in the West, and I think in Australia too, is that, gatherings, protests against Jews were allowed, and there they talked about, or they chanted many slogans. It's difficult. Once thousands of people come together, some people will shout slogans of violence. You can't control what they say. From river to the sea, basically that means Israel should cease to exist.

And you get many of these things coming up. Right or wrong is one thing, but it encourages certain viewpoints – in this case, the Jews. But it applies equally to any other minority. We don't allow that.

The third thing that we do differently, I think, while I express myself as no expert on Western societies, is that we put in a lot of effort to try and bring the communities together in the heartlands.

So, I would say those are the three things. So, Bondi Beach is very sad. But you noticed the Australian government moved very quickly after that. I should add one more point. We have very strict gun control laws. Okay, knives, we can't prevent people from having. But there is a big difference between the damage you can cause with automatic weapons and knives.

The Australian government has relooked, I think, and certainly moved very quickly after the incident. They all along had very sensible policies. But, you know, in some parts, we are different. And it's not whether their policies are more sensible than ours or ours are more sensible than theirs. It's a question of values in society. Our people are prepared to accept the Internal Security Department and detention without trial on the Minister's order. Our people are prepared to accept the very tough laws that prohibit hate speech along race, religion. That's a value system. In their societies, their people, I think, were not prepared to accept this. And that's a value their society places on, let's say, a broader level of speech. And less tolerant towards giving more powers to the government on areas like detention. So, you know, each society finds its own balance.

Rishi: No, that's fair, actually. That's a very good point. That difference is very marked, I feel, like you said, between Singapore and not just Australia, but the rest of the West as well. Did you ever face in your time or in the Department's time – you mentioned that the people generally accept this detention without trial as a way for the ISD to early intervene any kind of threats. Did you ever face any pushback from citizens or even from the Department?

Minister: I think there's been general acceptance. Doesn't mean that everyone accepts. There will always be people who will not accept certain laws. And whatever policy the government comes up with – be it in transport or healthcare or security, you must assume some people will not accept it, like it. That's in an open society – they will express their views. But I would say a broad majority of Singaporeans, in fact, an overwhelming majority of Singaporeans accept our legal framework.

Rishi: When it comes to hate speech, for example, you mentioned the strict laws here, and you mentioned in other parts of the world it may be different. This may be personal because I'm going to share a personal story, but have you ever, in your travels encountered any kind of negative speech towards you for being different or being the other, in the places you've been working? Just curious here, because I'll share my experience post-9/11, but I think it's relevant to you.

Minister: I think post-9/11, you know, in my travels, I haven't come across that. But a significant part of post-9/11, I was a Minister with security, so you wouldn't expect too much of that directed towards me. Or if they are saying it, I may not hear it. But I have, as a student, travelled through Europe. As a young adult, I've worked overseas. Not for a long time, but I have worked overseas. I've seen this sort of thing happen, even though it wasn't directed at me.

Rishi: Okay. Well, I'll share a story because I went to the US around 2006 or so for an exchange program in New York. I was in a town called Ithaca.

Minister: Very nice place.

Rishi: Beautiful place. I mean, but I was not in the Cornell side because that's the intelligent side. I was in the film and journalism… Ithaca kids. The only time we meet was when we partied together in College Town. All legal party-ings, with all full disclosure, okay? Never tried anything funny. But there was one day I was on my way to a film festival, and at that time it was winter, and I'd grown out a beard. And there were some kids, students on the bus who started pointing at me and calling me Osama.

And then the conversation started, "Are you from Pakistan?" And in this moment, these were big kids and all that, and I was like, "Either I’m going to get hammered today if I talk too much." And then I said in a make-or-break moment, I said, "No, I'm not from Pakistan. I'm from Singapore. And by the way, that's not where Osama is from." And then they were like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this guy." So, I escaped…

Minister: Most of them wouldn't know where Singapore is.

Rishi: Yeah, so I guess this links to a little bit of the question, you know, when we talk about protecting everyone's equal rights, right? Regardless of who the in-group is or the out-group is.

Minister: We try and prevent that in-group, out-group conversation mindset.

Rishi: You mentioned the role of the ISD in early intervention, threat assessment. I'm going to bring up another case. This was about a 15-year-old girl who, based on the investigations, had plans of going to marry an ISIS fighter. You remember this?

Minister: Yes.

Rishi: I think this was a case happened last year. What happened here, and what was the role of ISD preventing this from turning into any kind of catastrophical issue for Singapore?

Minister: In some ways, what happened here is unfortunately something that's happening fairly frequently. This girl, like many other young people, goes online, and she then comes across material which is inflammatory. She believes what she sees, and she then feels herself that she needs to do something, and she says, "Oh, well, you know, Muslims are getting killed. I want to go and do something about it, and I want to join a foreign fighting force, or in this case, marry a fighter, because he is dying for the religion. And in that way, I fulfil my duties." I mean, I'm summarising, but often that's a kind of mindset that happens. Well, you know, the kids, sometimes they want to go and fight.

They are boys. In girls, more than once, we have come across those who want to go and marry someone. Often you find that they don't automatically get into this. It's some unmet need for themselves to psychologically… some feeling of withdrawal, some feeling of not… some social issues. I'm not saying those are the primary causes, but you see a multiplicity of factors – they're not doing so well in school sometimes, they feel like an outcast, they feel separate, and they find their fulfilment in going online and getting into this mindset.

Not all the time. There are some perfectly or apparently well-rounded individuals who also go like this. Parents sometimes notice, and they let ISD know. Teachers sometimes notice. Students, their fellow students sometimes notice. In fact, very often we pick up based on the community's response and telling us, sometimes through our own efforts.

Rishi: May I ask, was this also one of the cases that was brought to you, and then you had to investigate and review before-

Minister: No, the investigation is done by the Department. They present the facts to me and they make their recommendations. I then go through it carefully, and then I agree or disagree with them.

Rishi: What was your first thought when this came to you? I mean, were you shocked, or is this normal, or were you prepared for it? Because it's youths we are dealing with.

Minister: You know, Rishi, in the last 10 years we have had to issue orders, including arrest warrants for 62 persons. If you are doing my job, you will not be shocked. I've seen 14-year-olds, 15-year-olds doing this. I've seen young boys who want to go and kill Muslims, influenced by the far right. I've seen young boys who want to go and kill Christians, or just people in general in Singapore. I've seen young boys and, you know, more than this girl, more than one girl who wants to go off and you know, marry someone in order to fight for this sort of cause. So, as I said, that's 62 over a period of 10 years and counting.

Rishi: So, it doesn't shock you anymore, right?

Minister: It doesn't shock me. It saddens me. But at the same time, in my conscience, what I think is… I give you the example of a teenager, you know, far-right… teenager whose understanding led him to think that he needs to go into a mosque and kill a few people.

He wanted to go to a couple of mosques and kill people. He wasn't doing well in school. He was in many ways, I think, not well-adjusted. We picked him up. We gave him the religious instructions through pastors, pastors who are prepared to do the voluntary work. He was given education, which allowed him to pass his O-Levels, whereas he wasn't doing well at all. And, you know, when he is released, he gets his head set right. It's not about going and killing others. And his head reset right in terms of his future and career. And the same has happened for those, you know, radicalised on the Muslim side. Many of them have been rehabilitated.

So, the way I look at it is if I didn't arrest them and did not detain them, a number of them would have gone on to kill. And if they are of age, they will face the death penalty. If they are not of age, they will be detained for a very long time. Their lives are gone, effectively. Or if they had gone overseas, they would have been killed in the fighting, as has happened to a few Singaporeans. If they went and married somebody, you've seen what happened to the brides who have married, their lives would have been destroyed. By detaining them and giving them this approach, those on the Muslim side, the Religious Rehabilitation Group, team of scholars, talk to them, rehabilitate them, they come out, they hold jobs. So, I say to myself, "We're actually saving their lives."

Rishi: It's tough. It's a tough decision to take.

Minister: You look at the results, and you compare with the other countries – what happens to them?

Rishi: You mentioned radicalisation, right? So, these examples that we're all talking about, they're all examples of this phenomenon, so to speak. If I had to explain it or understand it for the first time to people who have no idea what it is, what are we talking about here? What does radicalisation actually mean?

Minister: Well, I'll try and frame it in a sort of practical way. People automatically think it's got to do with religion. That's because many of the people whom we have arrested in Singapore, and many of the people who have done bad things overseas, have done so in the name of religion, but it can be for any other cause. They are influenced by the cause so much that they are prepared to go and kill somebody else or commit mass murder, take a car and mow into a crowd or go into some place and kill people. It doesn't have to be based on a religion, but in the recent past, almost all the examples have been based on some religious extremism.

Rishi: What other causes have you come across, at least in your limited experience over the 62 cases or the 10 years? Well, I wouldn't say limited. Extensive experience, actually.

Minister: Well, thankfully, in Singapore, our experience is relatively limited compared with other countries.

Rishi: That's good news, huh? Although we are saying it as though it's negative, but it's actually a positive.

Minister: No, it's positive. But I again say the fact that nothing has happened so far, and ISD has been successful in picking these people up, doesn't mean we'll succeed every time. So never let complacency set in. In my view, it's a question of when, not if. You know, we have millions of people visiting Singapore. Singapore is a major tourist centre. It's a major airport hub.

Hundreds of thousands of people cross our borders every day through the land checkpoints. We have to be an open society. Our economy, our trade, our very existence as a country depends on being open, and you're open to all the influences of the world through the internet. You're open to all the people coming into Singapore. Our ICA, Immigration Checkpoint Authority, does its best. They've done a very good job working hand-in-hand with the Internal Security Department and the Police force and our security forces. But, you know, it's looking for a needle in a haystack every time, and if you miss a needle or, three or four needles coming together, that's it. The incident will happen. That's why my tagline is, "Not if, but when."

And you need to be successful in picking up the needle or needles in the haystack every single time. You must assume that that doesn't always happen. And sometimes there will be a time when you miss it, or somebody slips through from outside. Or someone, who there's no pre-warning, just wakes up on one side of the bed one day in the morning and decides that he's going to kill some people. So, it's not easy. We need to be prepared.

Rishi: I want to show you the image of this next person, and first thoughts that come to mind when you see this image. Can we bring up the image, please? From the news, it is… Aha!

Minister: Yeah… What do you want to ask?

Rishi: First word that comes to mind.

Minister: Well, I wish the Americans had kept him.

Rishi: Oh, wow. Okay, really? Fair. Fair. Fair. So, this case of Amos Yee, for those of you who are listening in, if you can't see the visual, this was a case of a young person who was committing some offenses, but I'm trying to understand, would this be something you call radicalisation as well?

Minister: It's not what we would call radicalisation. It's a case that, you know, we dealt with, within the framework of our laws, and it's a case where a tremendous hypocrisy was shown by some media in the West, and some of our own people who like to think of themselves as intellectuals. And reflexively, whenever someone says something that they think is anti-government reflexively, or that person must be right and, you know, we must support him regardless of what he says and what he has done, without perhaps, you know, trying to be objective about it. What was he charged for? He used four-letter words to describe Christians and Muslims. In Singapore, no-no.

He put up a very crude, sexualised image of Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, pornography. So, he was charged for those sorts of things. Nothing to do with being pro or anti-government. You know, those are our laws. We have charged others. We'll charge him. We will charge in future, too.

But, oh you know, he's a great human rights case. So, you had The New Yorker which intervened to say, "Amos," and I quote, "is exactly the kind of person you would one day want maybe even running your country, Singapore."

I would like to know what The New Yorker now wants to say, and if they have any sense of decency to come back and say they’ve got it wrong. We had a Singaporean who (is) quite well-known, who thinks that he considers himself an intellectual, and I quote, "Amos Yee exemplifies all the qualities we want to teach our children, and that he has all the traits we want in our youth." Others jumped in. "This is brilliant young man – we are persecuting him, we are preventing his rights of free speech." And he was given asylum in the US. Because he was from "Repressive Singapore." Human Rights Watch, who are ever ready to jump in, said Singapore government had gone to extraordinary lengths to restrict Yee's free expression of rights.

Now, a few years later, they are sending him back from the US. Now, hypocrisy has many shades, as I said in a Facebook post. If the Department of Homeland Security puts him on its website as the worst of the worst criminals, aliens, and what was he arrested for? He has been arrested for different things, but the last time, as I understand it, for grooming a fourteen-year-old girl, seducing her, soliciting, luring her, distributing her photographs online, getting naked photos or asking her for naked photos, and so on. He was in 2021 sentenced for six years jail there, and then he was granted parole halfway, and then was taken back in for breaching.

I just wish they had just continued to keep him in the US. But, you know, they've decided now, they've changed their mind, and they're sending him back. We will have to deal with him according to our laws. But it shows you we apply our laws fairly, evenly, and it's people who try to give it subjective descriptors and try to paint the government's actions as a repressive government that, you know, affects free speech rights. What free speech when you want to use four-letter words on Christians and Muslims? No. Whether Christians, or Muslims, or any other religious group, or any other group defined by race or, you know, some sort of a character, we will deal with it. And our laws are clear.

Rishi: But he was never on the list of a threat to national security per se.

Minister: No, no. It's just a boy with very bad behaviour. But my only reaction to him coming back is the Americans, you know, city on a hill, their democracy, they believe in free speech. Why not just keep him since they gave him asylum?

Rishi: Yeah. But now he's become Singapore's-

Minister: Property. No, not quite. People are not property.

Rishi: Property. Problem.

Minister: No. Singapore's issue.

Rishi: Well, let me ask this question because we were having this discussion about saving youths from radical issues and how the government intervened and you understood the threat and you went, "Hey, I'm going to give you a chance to be rehabilitated.” Would this have been a case where we could have saved this person before he became this challenged individual?

Minister: We can intervene if the person comes within the framework of the Internal Security Act, but we can't intervene in the case of every badly behaved boy. You know, that's not the function of the government. That's the function of the family, community. People have to bring their own children up properly so that they don't cross the criminal lines. He was a… his conduct was criminal, and so he was charged. I think the obligation on the parents is to make sure that their children are brought up not to cross those lines.

We can't be intervening to help. In that context, what we can do, what the government can do is set a framework of values through the education system, which we do, and thankfully, compared with many other places, cases like Amos Yee are very, very rare in Singapore.

Rishi: On a separate note, I will ask you, do you think comedians might ever be a threat to national security? I'm just trying to check to make sure the temperatures are fair between us.

Minister: I would say comedians help national security because you bring the blood pressure of society down, hopefully a few notches, and everyone is calmer and happier.

Rishi: Can I put this as a Google review on my own website?

Minister: Sure.

Rishi: Minister for Home Affairs has given me a review.

Minister: But don't go and attack - sometimes people use religion as a foil for attack. Just stay away from that.

Rishi: Fair. Don't worry, all our major shows are vetted by IMDA.

Minister: You have to go through a process of sending, telling them what you're going to do, and if it is seriously crossing red lines, they will tell you. They will either not allow, or they will give you a classification.

Rishi: Exactly. That's how we've been doing our work for the past 15 years. I want to wrap up our discussion a little bit, sir. You've been very generous with your thoughts and your views. I would just like to understand, you know, how you think we, as a society, people and public citizens, families, friends, fellow classmates, youths, what are we looking out for in terms of these early signs of radicalisation, and what do we do thereafter if you see something or hear something?

Minister: As I said just now, quite a number of people whom we pick up were reported to us by their own family – their teachers, by their fellow classmates, because they notice something different. They notice a guy is saying some very odd things. Parents notice that, you know, spending a lot of time online, perhaps looking at stuff that is violent. And there is, I think, a fair degree of understanding, and we have been sending the message, "Actually, it's better for your children for you to report them. You are doing them a favour because you're potentially preventing them from committing some very serious crimes and offenses and, you know, perhaps even saving their lives." So that has worked, I would say, reasonably well. There are still people who don't report, but…

Rishi: Report means call Police, sir, straightaway? Or is there like a channel-

Minister: Yeah, tell the Police. Tell the Police. Police will know what to do. They will tell. They'll bring in ISD. But at the same time, you know, I wouldn't say awareness of potential security incidents is very high. We have been having our SGSecure movement. We've been trying to, you know, get our people to understand that it's not just the Police and Internal Security Department that has to look out for security threats.

Every one of us has a part to play. If you walk past a public place and you see a suspicious parcel, please keep your eyes and ears open, alert and report. We did a blind test. Only 17% noticed a suspicious looking parcel.

Rishi: Alamak.

Minister: And so, that's less than one in five, and then only 1% actually reported.

Rishi: Why do you think... Singaporeans just want to mind their own business, you think?

Minister: It's not that. It's just that we are so used to the high levels of security that the mindset doesn't kick in at all. It's not like some countries where, you know, you get regular incidents and then everybody becomes sensitised to the possibilities. In Singapore, it's me and the government saying, "Hey, this can happen, this can happen, this can happen, this can happen."

Rishi: And Singaporeans are like, "Won't happen lah."

Minister: No, it hasn't happened, right? We have been saying this for more than 10 years and nothing has happened. So, nothing has happened…

Rishi: Doesn't mean it won't, right?

Minister: Doesn't mean it won't, doesn't mean that they think our government is not telling the truth, but it's not in the frontal end of their thought process. It's not in the center of their consciousness.

Rishi: Do you think based on your interactions, for example, I know you went to some schools as well during Total Defence Day, to kind of see what the youths are thinking a little bit about, in terms of defence, in terms of the threats.

Minister: Yes.

Rishi: In your interaction, do you feel there's a sense of complacency, or is there a sense of maturity?

Minister: No, the schools are trying to do their best, and they're doing a very good job. The kids, I put it up on my Facebook post too, came out with various reports, you know, what they thought were the issues, what can happen when something serious happens. So, they are doing. And government, we have helped set up these religious harmony circles in every constituency because it's not just trying to prevent an attack. Even more important question is – what happens the day after the attack? How do the communities view each other? Because you know, we must make sure people understand the attacker is an isolated person. He doesn't represent whichever community he comes from, and we need to make sure the ties between the communities don't rupture and we don't start looking at each other with suspicion.

So, there's a lot of work to do. We need a society where people are alert and prepared to report straight away. We need a society where people are understanding if something happens and reach out across the community lines. And here, our religious leaders, our community leaders set a very good example. For example, this year during a session with the Religious Rehabilitation Group, just at the start of Ramadan, you had the Chief Rabbi of Singapore send a message. He was away, so he couldn't attend. His assistant was there physically, and he said, "We acknowledge the pain and suffering of all peoples," including the Palestinians who are suffering. Very, very brave statement for a leader of a Jewish community to say. Not many across the world have done it.

Rishi: And it's an important one.

Minister: It's an important one, but equally, when the 7 October happened, the Mufti of Singapore came out against violence on any side. He said, "Violence by anyone is not acceptable, including by Hamas."

So, we have religious leaders in Singapore who are credible and who are prepared to speak up objectively, and we have community leaders who understand the importance. And our population, like when Gallup poll polled about, I think, well over 85% said Singapore is a good place for minorities.

Surveys consistently show that. So, people accept the system. People believe in it. People like the framework that Singapore offers. The one issue is complacency on that, you know, the government will take care of it, won't happen. And so, we are not switched on to the possibilities that something might happen.

Rishi: And we talk about the safety and security of Singapore as one of the plus points.

Minister: Yeah, the complacency is a corollary of the safety and security.

Rishi: There you go. Got your quotable quote right there. Thank you so much for making time, I appreciate it. Thanks for entertaining my intrusive thoughts about these things that I've been thinking about for a while.

Minister: Thanks for entertaining me, too.

Rishi: You know, you've been a guest on my podcast, but at some point, if you have some time, please come as a guest in my live shows as well as an audience member.

Minister: Yeah, sure. Let me know.

Rishi: On stage also, if you want, you can.

Minister: On stage, the quality of your show might dip a little bit – or more than a little bit, but let's see.

Rishi: Okay, okay, don't worry. We'll get some writers involved. I think we'll be fine. Who knows, that might be the next hit show in Singapore, prevent people from being complacent about issues of national security. Hey, we've got a pitch right there, huh? I'll talk to your comms team.

Minister: How do you do a comedy show of that? But we'll see.

Rishi: Don't worry. I mean, nobody expected you to be on the Rishi Report when we first came on the show, but hey, look where we are right now. Thanks for making time. Really appreciate it. If there's any final message you want to share to the public with regards to some of the issues we've discussed… Closing thoughts.

Minister: Final message – we are in it together, all of us in it together, and we have so far (over)came through many things. Let's try and do it through the latest crisis, as well as issues of extremism, terrorism, radicalism. Let's work together, and all of us have a part to play.

Rishi: Thank you very much, Minister, for being on the show with me. Folks, that’s the end of our episode. We hope you’ve enjoyed the discussion and hopefully, you take away some of these messages that we’ve been talking about here. We’ll be back on our next episode. New guest, new topics. This has been The Rishi Report podcast, see you soon everyone.